Curse

TheLordOfBlah · Jun 27, 2006, 05:23 AM // 05:23

OK for a lot of you people who say "OMG ITS SO ANOYING" well, its also anoying being the only monk healing stupid spellcasters who sit in AOE, or let a war attack them and then think "O THE MONK WILL SAVE ME"... WRONG

Now you can do this with 1 monk and a rit, but never 1 monk alone.

This isnt "new" every group ive been in even if its not a PUG, we've had 2 monks. (8 players or more of course)

EDIT:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bad Apache

This thread is pointless. You have no question, no arguement, no topic up for discussion. Just another spam thread about monks.

Not to say the thread doesnt suck but...
Are two monks really needed for *EVERY* quest/mission?
that looks like a question to me.

[email protected] · Jun 27, 2006, 05:26 AM // 05:26

It's a function of how many noobs are in the group. I'm sure a group of 7 Tyrian Protectors could get by with 1 monk with only healing breeze in his skill bar. That's assuming someone else has Prot Spirit.

shadowfell · Jun 27, 2006, 05:28 AM // 05:28

I've done several missions, including thk, without monks at all. simply with ritualists, so... I would venture as far to say as you don't need any at all. If you're a smart group of players.

Minus Sign · Jun 27, 2006, 06:14 AM // 06:14

This question was asked several months ago (pre-factions) and answered by a group that beat THK with no monk in their party.

Monks are not needed for any mission or quest. They are preffered because most people don't want to manage their HP and fight at the same time. Its a hassle you don't want to deal with so healers gain prominance as a result.

...wildly differing from PvP where everyone (with half a brain) brings their own heals and is not shy about using them to help the monk manage their energy.

EDIT: Screw it. You don't want to hear it, but I'ma goanna say it. You want to make sure your team has a support character (monk, rit, whatever) then make one. In case no one has noticed there is a phenomenal shortage of monks in game. There are several popular schools of thought as to why:

1. Once they beat the game, they don't go back. A misconception, at least in my case. When people ask I monk for them, even if its beginning misions, I do. And usually, I PuG the rest.

2. No one plays them because they are boring/too hard. Being a support character is one of the hardest professions in this game, particularly in PvE where those aforementioned self-heals are a myth as reclusive as a unicorn (the ratio of people who claim to bring self heals in GW Guru to those who actually use them in game is considerably warped).

3. Monks are snobs who don't want to play in anything other than a "balanced" group. BS. I've enjoyed playing in many diverse groups. I never would have learned how good Rit Lords are unless I'd had the pleasure of playing beside one. Diversity is what gives Guild Wars spice.

But what I don't want to see is a total brain fart of a group build. You may not understand it, but its not my job to sit on your assassin and let you tank/mana sink me into physical RL exhaustion. Point of fact, for most of the people reading this, I KNOW YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND THAT.

When I see 3 Sins in a group (which I can now, thanks to the recent change in party info before joining) I don't accept the invite. Thats not snobbish, thats ball rocking fear of AI pwnage!!!

4. Monks who start their own groups usually find members quickly and can pick and choose who to bring. Because they have greater options (being in the minority and--again--much sought after as a support player) they get a "good group" quick, play the mission through and usually win. They also have less time to spend spamming "LFMONK to GO!" Now that...that last ones true.

TadaceAce · Jun 27, 2006, 06:17 AM // 06:17

No you don't need two monks, 1 really good monk is more than enough, but more often than not one of your monks is a newb and the other one picks up the slack.

Cresint · Jun 27, 2006, 06:20 AM // 06:20

Having two monk is very helpful, tho, when going for the masters on a mission. Just sayin'

Siliconwafer · Jun 27, 2006, 06:44 AM // 06:44

Two monks is certainly not a requirement; however most PvE pugs will have people who won't kite away from sources of damage (e.g. Firestorm, away from melee characters), nor will they have the mind to stop and rest, pull effectively or focus on killing threats (as opposed to just sloshing damage equally all over a mob). This stuff quickly increases the damage you take, and thus the damage you have to heal.

I'll always insist on another monk if I'm monking, though, because most pugs simply don't co-ordinate well enough.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minus Sign

Monks are not needed for any mission or quest. They are preffered because most people don't want to manage their HP and fight at the same time. Its a hassle you don't want to deal with so healers gain prominance as a result.

...wildly differing from PvP where everyone (with half a brain) brings their own heals and is not shy about using them to help the monk manage their energy.

Yes, you can beat THK with no monk. But still, putting most of your heals on a monk is far more efficient than heavy use of selfheals, as most are complete rubbish and/or diminish your offensive capability (examples being Ether Feast and Aura of Restoration).
Simply, a monk heal spell or a prot spell+boon will heal more damage in less time and be more efficient about it.

Paperfly · Jun 27, 2006, 07:14 AM // 07:14

I'm a monk, I'm a good one, and I play PuGs exclusively.

I'd rather have one monk than three. Mitigating damage by killing mobs reduces the monk's workload enormously... Take note, those of you who run Mending "to help the monk": I'd rather you killed stuff faster.

I'm enormously in love with Communing-based Ritualists as the support 'healer' at the moment - Shelter is awe-inspiring (and irreplaceable!) and Union is the most efficient Heal Party you'll ever see.

(Speaking of Heal Party, if you have access to a good e-management elite I strongly suggest trying it out - it's the perfect PuG 'panic button')

In order of preference for an eight-man group in a mission that's reasonably hard:

Best:
Classic healer plus Rit Lord Shelter spammer
Classic healer plus active prot monk
Classic healer plus boon-prot monk
Classic healer x2
Classic healer plus Restoration rit
Restoration rit plus Shelter Spammer
Classic healer alone
Restoration rit x2
Boon-prot alone
...
Classic healer x3
Worst

About the only circumstances I'll insist on two healers on is if (a) we have to split the team, or (b) there's a lot of suicidal NPCs to keep alive. So mainly Eternal Grove.

Don Zardeone · Jun 27, 2006, 07:26 AM // 07:26

2 monks
only in pugs

Roupe · Jun 27, 2006, 07:42 AM // 07:42

Actually most of the non lvl 20 missions, can be solo:ed, with a lvl 20 character. And since those are in majority , the answer is no - you dont usually need monks ^^

As a side note, other proffesions acting as dedicated healers , can do the job using monk secondary (or ritualist)- But people often find that less effective

I guess the reason for people bringing monks (or others of the holy trinity)is that they make the team more effective and thus gets the job done much faster. Impatience & time saving -in short

Kali Magdalene · Jun 27, 2006, 09:20 AM // 09:20

Every time I get into a group with another monk, I ask what he's carrying so I can adjust to fill gaps...but they always say that they have the same stuff I do, and the party doesn't want to wait the 30 seconds it'd take for me to rearrange for more protection or whatever. I don't even try to do anything more complex than divine boon, protection, hex and condition removal in PUGs anymore.

Thom · Jun 27, 2006, 09:42 AM // 09:42

The amount of healing required is directly related to the efficiency of damage. If you have optimized damage builds and good communication, there shouldn't be reason for more than one healer. If you are a in a thrown together pug, it may be smart to have 2 people devoted to healing.

lightblade · Jun 27, 2006, 09:45 AM // 09:45

Not neccessarily 2 monks, just 2 healers

Restore Rt can fill the role

-Loki- · Jun 27, 2006, 11:45 AM // 11:45

Boreas Seabed is pretty easy to solo monk if you can catch Argos insane meteors. I did it for a masters reward.

nitrile · Jun 27, 2006, 12:12 PM // 12:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paperfly

In order of preference for an eight-man group in a mission that's reasonably hard:

Best:
Classic healer plus Rit Lord Shelter spammer
Classic healer plus active prot monk
Classic healer plus boon-prot monk
Classic healer x2
Classic healer plus Restoration rit
Restoration rit plus Shelter Spammer
Classic healer alone
Restoration rit x2
Boon-prot alone
...
Classic healer x3
Worst

That sequence is a pretty good approximation of what I'd choose under most circumstances and that's a great list. Obviously this varies depending on what various missions require, what's actually available for a pickup group and what defences mobs are using but the emphasis is, avoiding duplication and getting maximum benefits from each person in the group.

No group needs two monks specifically - but two support characters aren't out of the question and is often wise, as long as they're not duplicating efforts (which is of course what makes 2+ heal less advisable). Anet's solution to "two monks" (or worse, three) is a communing or restoration ritualist. You could also consider a mesmer that blinds, removes hexes and interrupts a support character so it's not of course limited to that. The issue here is err7's or leavers - if that monk leaves for whatever reason, you lost your heal specialist. You can continue with 1 heal monk but not 1 interrupt mesmer. This is one big reason why people ask for 2 (or god forbid, 3) heal monks, it's because they do not wish to scrap a mission or long trip because a vital specialist has gone.

I have a different take to a lot of people on the issue of selfheals/selfdefences - in general I think it's ok for most people not to take them. There are obvious exceptions to this, anyone who can reasonably expect to be hit a lot or die before your support can respond - tanks, assassins. Anyone else had better run or take cover from projectiles, which uses no energy or skill slots. Of course the bar is raised much higher in the underworld or similar than other places. My reasoning is this - a team with two support chars (monks) is only 6 damagers. A monk with their energy pool and 8 skill slots is there exclusively TO look after everyone else while they do their job of killing. It's only up to everyone else to ensure, through whatever means, that they are neither an excessive burden nor too fragile, while still doing their job. It is bad or inexperienced players do not realise this, and simply place all the burden on the two characters that have 6 other people to look after.

war adrenaline · Jun 27, 2006, 12:12 PM // 12:12

yes you need 1 monk for missions 1-4 and sometimes 6, and you need 2 monks for missions 6-8. period. unless you have alot of elementalist hP "heal party" support group.

WasAGuest · Jun 27, 2006, 12:59 PM // 12:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zakarr

Unfortunately two monks is more like a requirement than an option. Common players like go berserk and ignore defense because monks will save their asses. Playing as a monk is very boring. Tried playing as smiting monk but so many get upset if I tell them that I'm a smiter. Usually get a kick after invitation. Guild Wars is at best when most of your party members are guild members. Pugs always follow certain formulas when getting party members. That is a pity because the skill system is meant for versatile and interesting builds. It will require teamwork. Most builds are useless with pugs.

PuGs = FoTM and cookie cutter builds posted on the net (so I agree there). That's why I think henchies need a major upgrade so when the guild and friends aren't around the game is still playable with unique and fun builds that don't require half an hour of:

Searching the boards for the newest FoTM
LFG for mission
etc

2 monks aren't always needed. Most of the time, my guild group takes just the healer henchie and can beat whichever mission we go on.

Silent Kitty · Jun 27, 2006, 01:04 PM // 13:04

Two good monks save money on armour. Nuff said.

Raxxman · Jun 27, 2006, 01:26 PM // 13:26

With one good monk, I hardly ever need to used my self heal.

There are multiple ways to avoid dammage in the first place... Frenzy, Mending and Heal sig aint one.

Carth` · Jun 27, 2006, 01:35 PM // 13:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maxiemonster

1 good Monk = 2 decent Monks = 3 bad Monks

QFT

When I've been a monk in groups with 2 or 3 monks, I usually notice that I am the person keeping everyone alive. When the other monks leave and there is only me left, still nobody dies, essentially illustrating how superfluous the other monks were, and they could have been damage dealers instead, or could have not been stealing our drops.

The trouble is that people are stuck in their ways. They can't understand that a ritualist can keep a team alive, and they can't understand that they don't need class X for a certain role. People just want cookie cutter teams, and although this leads to people getting excluded a lot, and often redundancy in a team, it is still quite effective. Of course, thinking is also effective, but expecting people to think is a dangerous thing.